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  2. Hello,


    You can now get verified on forum.

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    Best regards,

    StanleyOG.

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  1. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    I will present what might be a better illustration of the difference between a factual assertion and a value assumption.

    "Americans spend more per capita on health care than the people of any other country," is a factual assertion. It also happens to be true, as anyone who clicks on this link can see:
    *not_secure_link*secure.cihi.ca/cihiweb/en/media_13nov2008_fig2_e.html

    "The government should provide everyone with health care," is a value assumption. One either feels that way or one does not. The statement cannot be proven to be true or false.

    Most opinions posted on internet forums seem to be value assumptions. That is why most arguments on internet forums devolve into flame wars. Posters post values the other side does not share. Then they become angry to learn that the other side does not share their value system. Finally they begin to post insults.
     
  2. Kimiko

    Kimiko Porn Star

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    What happens, though, is that posters tend to back up their assertions (which you're referring to as "value assumptions") with supposedly factual statements, and those "facts" often turn out to be false, thus calling into question the person's opinion. On other occasions they fail to provide any factual support for their assertions, similarly calling them into question.
     
  3. RedRain4

    RedRain4 I Invented Sex

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    *slaps hands together*
    "Hercules Hercules Hercules"
     
  4. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    Participation in this and other internet forums has reinforced a cognition I developed long ago: facts are seldom important when it comes to strongly held political opinions. If a person with a strong opinion is presented with facts that discredit the opinion, the person does not change his or her mind, but gets angry.

    H. L. Mencken complained about, "the dull certainties of ignorant men." There does indeed seem to be a correlation between ignorance and strong opinions. Those who are well informed are more likely to have ambivalent feelings and nuanced perceptions of reality.
     
  5. Kimiko

    Kimiko Porn Star

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    That's an interesting point. And it certainly seems to hold true these days.
     
  6. Incubus

    Incubus Horned & Dangerous

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    he's being flamed by....himself.


    this logic fails so hard to wins.
     
  7. baller16

    baller16 Porn Star Suspended!

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    I've done more self reflection in the past few years than most people do in a whole lifetime.

    Everybody who has a problem with me and tries to sell me the bullshit that you're trying to sell me right now has something in common, and not something positive.

    People who do not have that thing in common know that I'm not like that.
     
  8. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    The problem usually arises when one tries to use "facts" as weapons. Others are forced to defend themselves and their opinions by stating what they believe are the facts. And an argument ensues.

    I would submit that the real culprit is the one who misuses facts, presenting incomplete or irrelevant pieces of information, as though they were all encompassing.

    When it comes to political ideologies, one set of "facts" does not apply to all situations. For example, on health care, for someone to cite the lack of access to health care for many if the poorer people in the US as evidence that the system is totally flawed. When another person agrees that the poor need access, but that the bulk of the system is okay, they are met with more bombardments of the original premise.

    It is counterproductive.
     
  9. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    Any change in economic policy will benefit some people at the expense of others. How one feels about the change depends on how one feels about those who will benefit, and those who will not.

    Also, it is difficult to prove causal relationships in politics because many different factors influence a single important event. The natural tendency is to claim credit for what everyone approves of on what we more personally like, and to blame what is universally disapproved of on what we more personally dislike.

    Nevertheless, facts are important. That is why in a debate - or a flame war when I am outnumbered - I like to restrict myself to statements of fact that I can document.

    It is true that the U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world. It is true that by important criteria it performs less well than nationalized systems.
     
  10. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    One of the things I appreciate about internet forums is that I can gain insight into the way ordinary people really think and feel about issues. Republican commentators can pick the President's health care plan apart. They can quote all sorts of numbers that are presumed to prove that "socialized medicine" will cost more and perform less well than the present system.

    The attitude that comes through again and again on internet forums is, "I like my health coverage. I do not care about those without coverage. I do not want my tax money spent helping them." Even those on Medicare think that way if they oppose the President's plan.
     
  11. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    These two posts are classic examples of what I see.

    You take a couple of generalizations and come to a conclusion supporting your beliefs.

    No where do you give credit to what is really being said, just your opinion of what was said.
     
  12. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    What did I say that is not true? :confused::confused::confused:

    Be nice and specific, please. :):)

    I'm used to being flamed by those who cannot refute my arguments using facts, insight, and logic. You are too civilized for that, tenguy, but you are not addressing my arguments. You are just saying that they are wrong. :(
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2009
  13. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    What I was referring to was your use of your opinion of others mixed with a conclusion that you drew from a few disjointed facts. The state of the US health care system is not adequately described by two observations. There is more to the problems than the symptoms of apparent cost and apparent results.
     
  14. Distant Lover

    Distant Lover Master of Facts

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    What specifically? :confused:

    The U.S. health system is the most expensive in the world. It is less popular than the health systems of countries with socialized medicine. It gets results that are less positive. I have documented those assertions on many occasions. I would love to do so again. :p

    It may well be that after compromising with those who benefit from present injustices, those who think that they do, and those who do not want their tax money helping blacks and Hispanics, Obama will come up with a system that is even worse than the status quo. Nevertheless, socialized medicine can work better than our present system. In many countries it does.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2009
  15. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    The topic of the US health care system has been discussed in many other threads in here, this thread is about whether alternative opinions are welcome in the forum.

    We (you and I) have discussed the topic at length, why start again.

    You take two unrelated facts and attempt to draw a conclusion from them. This is my opinion, failing to consider the other factors makes the conclusion a flawed deduction.
     
  16. 69magpie

    69magpie Mischievous Magpie

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    PLEASE NOTE

    We the members of other countries than the US that have a Public Funded Healthcare System do not refer to it as socialized health, so when you are refering to us can you please call it a "public healthcare system"

    Thank you for you assistance :rolleyes::)
     
  17. tenguy

    tenguy Reasoned voice of XNXX

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    If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and swims like a duck, should I call it a crow?
     
  18. 69magpie

    69magpie Mischievous Magpie

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    In this case YES :excited:
     
  19. jayjaydee

    jayjaydee Porn Star

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    .
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2009
  20. jayjaydee

    jayjaydee Porn Star

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    Do you know what annoys me about you 2 chaps(Shakezula and Baller, that is)? You are both obviously clever ppl; yes your opinions are often diametrically opposite; you both are opinionated, and have the words to put your points across. BUT, you will NEVER change the opinion of each other, AND you both resort to the bassest of denominators and flame each other outrageously.
    If you were able to sit down and chat over a beer you'd probably find a lot in common, and would certainly have great conversations.
    Give each other a break, FFS, please?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 18, 2009